Sarah Kinsley: In Her Own Words

You just dropped a new single called “Karma” last week. Can you tell us what “Karma” is about? 

“Karma” was a really massive song I wanted to make to dance to, and I wanted to make a song which celebrates things that scared me. 

Over quarantine this summer, I had been listening to a ton of old 70s music — my dad’s cassettes and Fleetwood Mac. And I was really frustrated by a lot of things and I was questioning a lot of things around me. Very typical existential crises: is anything real? Do I have control over anything? Being very frustrated with the world. 

As I was sitting with all of this, I realized having no control is sort of a beautiful thing. My idea turned into maybe we can actually celebrate this — and make something just as terrifying as it is exciting and beautiful. After that kicked in, a lot of the writing was dedicated towards embracing these very big notions and wanting to celebrate them instead of being terrified.

What was your songwriting process like for “Karma?” 

It started so terribly because I was actually writing another song that’s been thrown out now. I was having a really terrible writer’s block — for most of the pandemic I experienced this because it’s very hard to write about things when you’re not experiencing anything. I was just sitting in my room, surrounded by the same four walls! It was so repetitive and hard to really capture things.

So I was very frustrated with writing, and I used voice memos a lot like many other artists — I was writing that other song and about halfway through I got so frustrated that I just started playing these other chords and trying to experiment. It was a very sudden burst of energy out of frustration and the madness of not being able to produce and create something that I really genuinely loved for a while. After that it was really quick. A melody came out. I realized a couple words fit really well together.

The music video for “Karma” is so captivating. Can you tell us about the music video and your visual inspiration for “Karma?” Is this also the inspiration for your next era as well? 

The video was so much fun to make! I shot it with one of my best friends, Lux, who also goes to Columbia. We had the best time. It’s very hard when you collaborate with other people because you have to be on the same wavelength in terms of what you think. And with Lux it’s terrifying because we work so well together that she can finish my thoughts before I’ve even said them out loud. 

We had this incredible idea to create these two characters where I am the fortune teller as well as my own self in the video. As the characters develop, the characters are pronounced through their clothing as well as in the setting. It was so cool to film my two characters at the table; and then me running to the roof; and the fortuneteller character following the main character throughout the video. 

It was this whole visual component where we basically personified the idea of fate and destiny following you and catching up to you and simultaneously being ahead of you as if it is creeping behind or following you. Lux and I spent so much time talking about the things we believe in as well and what we wanted to show in the video and to really clearly distinguish the two as myself. But also we wanted to portray that maybe I am my own fate in a weird sense. 

We got to listen to your first EP, The Fall, last year. Can we expect another project soon?

Yes, definitely in the spring! I’m vamping up everything to come out. There’s a lot of stuff in the near future that I’m really, really excited about and of course “Karma” will be a part of it — “Karma” is the kickoff of everything.

Can you give us any hints about your next EP?

I’m technically not supposed to say anything because it’s unannounced and unnamed but there’s a lot of really exciting new music coming out! It’s very distinct and diverse from “Karma,” I’ll say that. A big goal this year has been to maintain unpredictability which is kind of like an oxymoron just by saying that and having that goal be consistent. But I’m really trying to put things out that are unexpected. So that’s the hint I’m allowed to give. 

I have another question which I wanted to ask at the very end of our conversation but you sort of touched on it now. How do you define yourself as an artist? Do you want to be a popstar? An alt artist? Or something completely new? Basically, who are you as an artist?

I’ve been thinking about this a lot especially over the past few weeks because things have been really crazy and immensely beautiful and it all feels very unreal. There’s a weird line right now where I feel that this is very tangible — the possibility of having this kind of future. It’s never been as real or exciting or as tangible as it is right now. It’s very crazy to think about from last year or even from a couple months ago. 

But I think it’s so weird trying to put myself into some presentable box and saying “I want to be this kind of artist” because I’m just changing all the time. I’m always indecisive about what I really want to be. I think I’d like to be an artist who is continuously evolving in some sort of sense — whether that’s sonically or visually. I feel like it’s inevitable, it’s bound to happen. It sounds funny saying it out loud but I really would like to have a different discography or records that really represent very distinct aspects of life in a way that is original to me yet also is so new,  something that’s reborn in every single record or every album or whatever it is. That’s the dream of who I’d like to be.

So you blew up on TikTok recently and even Diplo noticed you. Can you tell us what that whole experience was like?

Honestly it was really funny. I laughed for days just thinking about it. I don’t understand Tik Tok! I didn’t use it during quarantine, maybe I scrolled through a couple times but I never posted anything and I had like 40 followers which was lovely and they were so supportive. And over the past months of me posting stuff, I had maybe 60 followers maximum. I’m not exaggerating how few people were keeping up with my music on TikTok.

The day before I posted the first one that kinda went crazy,  I was still experimenting and figuring out how to use the platform. It’s insane how powerful it is, and what it’s been like for artists on it. So I was trying to figure out how to introduce myself over it really. But I posted that video and at first it did so poorly, it had maybe two likes: one of the team members I work with and a stranger. But after three hours, my phone would not stop buzzing and then Diplo commented and it just wouldn’t stop. And it’s just insane how many people use TikTok now. It’s very hard to wrap my head around. It doesn’t feel real at all, I feel very detached from it, and I feel very thankful.

And if I remember correctly, one of the TikToks was about being a woman producer in the industry. Can you tell us more about your experiences with that?

Yeah I mean it was really funny when I posted that video because so many people were super offended. I don’t know why. Because it’s a quote — like something someone had said to me once — and people were like “no one said this” and “this is fake news.” People were getting really heated in the comments and it was really funny trying to not read those things and also wanting to read them because people were just getting into fights with strangers. That’s never happened to me and I don’t really use twitter either — which is where I feel like a lot of those debates happen more frequently — but it was just hilarious to read through.

And this all cements the entire idea of what it actually means to be a woman producer. We know that literally two percent of the producers who have proper credits are women. That statistic gives me chills, not in a good way. It scares me how that’s the number. It’s very disappointing. And there’s an odd balance at play, too. On one hand, we really need to start understanding that it’s not like the reason why women don’t win awards at the Grammys or Oscars is because there are no women producers or directors. That’s just false — we’re just not recognizing them enough. But it’s also been really cool because most of the comments are really supportive as well so it just reminds me all the stuff i’ve been doing — whether it’s been in complete isolation, learning these things and going through these odd experiences with other producers — all of it is really worth it. Making music, having so many people who reach out and wanna talk about production and take it seriously and believe in the quality of work more so than the person behind it. It’s been really lovely overall, just part of it to me is just wildly hilarious

That brings me to two questions I have for you, both about the Grammys. First, did you watch? Did you think there were any snubs or anyone who won an award they particularly deserved? Second, a lot of artists, including the Weeknd, have spoken up about racism in the music industry and particularly within the Grammys. What’s your take on that?

Well I did not watch the Grammys because I had rehearsal. But I read a lot about it later. I was really really happy to see Kaytranada win Best Dance Recording, he’s someone I really look up to in music. I learned how to DJ really early on but I loved dance music hugely due to him and that recent album. So I was really happy to see that. 

In terms of award shows, I think everyone has issues with them every year. There’s bound to be a snub, that’s just how it works. I definitely believe there’s a very odd way of categorizing people through genre which inherently leads to this odd distinction of music through race or ethnicity and of course that leads to people talking about racism at the Grammys. I ended up doing a Sociology project on this, discussing how the entire idea of genre is inherently racist. The beginnings of pop music are horrendous to read about and I remember taking a class at Columbia for the first time and I’d never really taken any historical class about pop music — that’s never been offered, it’s always been Jazz or Classical or things like that — but minstrelsy was a huge part of the foundation of pop music. It’s disgusting to read about and see how that music is immortalized through genre and through the foundation of pop — there’s a lot of weird unpacking that needs to be done. I think the Grammys are a really interesting example of how those barriers are being broken down and how some of them manage to stay up sometimes throughout history. Definitely something people are still working on — a lot of artists who now are being properly awarded and credited for how talented they are. 

But there’s still an odd line between why some albums are only nominated in certain categories and not the big ones, like the big pop categories. People talked about Chloe x Halle for a lot of that. Why aren’t they nominated in the big pop categories? Why aren’t their names there? There is a lot to be said about the danger of genre and of labeling but at the same time the balance is the beauty of having those genres and distinctions between musicians. There’s a lot of very blurred lines here.

So you briefly mentioned in my last question some of your musical inspirations. Can you tell us who’s inspiring you right now? And who are your biggest musical inspirations as well?

For “Karma” and the music I’m putting out in the future — I’m listening to so much Fleetwood Mac. This is obvious, I don’t even need to say that. Everytime I post anything someone is like “hey Stevie” and that’s the best compliment I will ever receive. It’s the greatest comparison! A lot of Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nicks solo stuff. I listen to a lot of Arlo Parks these days, a lot of Beachouse. Weyes Blood has this album with Drugdealer, they have these collaboration tracks and records they’ve done and I just adore them. They work so well together. Of course Abba is always one of my top artists. Or Carol King, I  used to listen to all the time a couple years ago. Recently I’ve been listening to a lot of Sylvan Esso, I love them. HAIM, of course, is one of those life influences — next time they put out new music, I’m gonna need 20 business days to recoup and feel okay!

“Open Your Eyes” is your breakout song. Everyone loves it. Can you tell us what the song means to you? And why do you think this song in particular blew up? 

It’s really funny thinking about it now because that was so long ago. Almost a year and a half ago. I remember writing it and I think I wrote it two years ago this month. I was on spring break. I don’t know why it did so well honestly. I was just learning how to produce — when I listen to the song now, there’s so many things I’d change which is a bad hole to fall down! But I don’t know. It probably has a weird quality of free-ness. Not freedom per say, but the sense of being free in your body. It’s a weird theme there. 

This song is one of those moments many artists talk about where something has happened to you and the only way you can fully express those emotions and reactions is through a song and specific words. “Open Your Eyes” is that for me. I’d gone through a terrible, terrible relationship and the ending of that relationship after like 3 years. This song was me finally being vulnerable with myself for the first time about being blinded by this specific person and wanting to see things for how they were once again and be confident in what I was seeing and what I was becoming and all that stuff. So that’s my potential interpretation of why it did so well and I’m not entirely sure but I think a lot of people can attest to that feeling of opening their own eyes and realizing the world is much more different than we assume it to be.

I know you have a background in classical music and it in many ways inspired The Fall and your other music. Will we continue to hear that in your music going forward and can you tell us about your classical background?

Yeah, absolutely, I think even if you don’t hear an orchestral symphony, the classical roots will definitely still be there, especially in some of the upcoming tracks in the future. Whenever I think about it, i’m so grateful for the education I was able to receive through classical music. Especially as a really young child, learning classical music and playing it — I fell in love quickly with certain kinds of music which were very expressive. I always love thinking about the idea that instrumental music is almost more imaginative: because there’s no words, you can attach any kind of music to what you say. And this kind of expression in music, to have that at such a young age, is something I will never shut up about or want to forget. And it definitely influenced my pop music. I find the two worlds to be so different and also identical in some ways in how they appear. I’m excited to keep using it in music and I feel like my personal taste has changed a lot as well as the music I listen to so it’s always a new challenge. It’s something I’m excited about, to continue to merge the two and bring this weird past with me in all the new music.

Last question. This one might be a bit awkward and too meta… do you like to call people your fans? What’s this experience like?

It’s so weird! I don’t know, I would call myself a fan of other people but I I find it so weird when all the stuff with social media and the internet was blowing up, everyday I was telling friends and family that this is way too much for my ego! Like I can’t read too much into this.
If I had to boil something down to tell people, it’s just that everyday I’m reminded how grateful I am. And I am in awe of the fact that I’m at a point now where there are so many people reading into the music I’m writing. I genuinely think it’s the most beautiful thing in the entire world that I’m able to collapse something I experience or wanna speak about into a form of expression that you can then digest and interpret and express as your own thing. I think that is wild and so crazy that we have the power to do that and I’m just amazed how there are more and more people who want to engage in that form of expression with me and want to piece together what I’m talking about or want to know what the meaning is behind the song or wanting to basically live through those experiences with me and be taken with me. I’m just very in awe of it, which is why my words are not forming together perfectly.